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House of Games #61 — Shooting Yourself in the Foot

Otto Wretling
46 min readFeb 14, 2024

Load ’em up and aim down below as we discuss the concept of “Shooting Yourself in the Foot”, or ruining the fun in games. Listen in as we talk about stories where we ruined our own fun and how you can stop players from doing the same in your game!

Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/house-of-games/message

Chapters

00:00 Episode Intro
00:55 Introducing the Theme for the Episode: Shooting Yourself in the Foot
03:02 Open-World Games and Collectibles
13:41 How Developers Are Shooting Themselves in the Foot
14:28 Open-World Games (in Space) Are Overhyped and Over-Promised
17:32 Sunset Moon Update
19:48 Shooting Yourself in the Foot With Trophies
25:29 Achievements in KnifeBoy
29:45 The Antidote
42:33 Why Open World Space Games Are Boring, Continued
47:53 Points of No Return in Games
52:23 Problems and Solutions for Card Games Inside Video Games
58:00 How Developing Games Replaces Playing Games
01:03:15 Episode Outro

Your Hosts and Their Games

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Other Links

Transcript

Episode Intro

[00:00:00] Rune: Halli, hello everyone and welcome to the most aimless podcast in the world, House of Games. Today I’m joined by my fellow puller, Otto, and lo and behold, his fellow co-host has joined us, this week again, Rune! But before we load our guns, let’s enter this week’s episode of House of Games.

[00:00:19] Otto: Welcome to House of Games, and I guess welcome back to House of Games for you, Rune. So, it’s really good to, to have you back.

[00:00:41] Rune: Thank you, thank you. I was on holiday last week.

[00:00:44] Otto: Nice, very nice. I hope you, enjoyed yourself and feel, entirely replenished.

[00:00:51] Rune: Yes, indeed.

[00:00:55] Otto: Nice.

Introducing the Theme for the Episode: Shooting Yourself in the Foot

[00:00:56] Otto: Alright, so today’s theme is shooting yourself in the foot. So, first of all, for those who don’t know, Rune, would you like to give an explanation of what that might mean?

[00:01:09] Rune: Oh, thanks. Again. We talked about this before we started this episode and you wrote to me what it meant and now I’ve pulled down that window. So, yeah, shooting yourself in the foot, that’s, you know, that’s when you play games and you sort of you, you make the game less fun for yourself by doing certain things.

[00:01:30] For example, if you’re obsessing over trophies, something I’m well aware of, you can ruin the game experience by yourself. So that’s the kind of, stuff we’re gonna talk about. Or do you think, there is more to say regarding shooting yourself in the foot, what it actually means?

[00:01:46] Otto: Yeah, exactly, that was, basically what I thought as well. So, something like where you sort of ruin your own fun, basically, for usually a good intention, but it you end up, like, having less fun, or quitting the game completely, just, for some reason. So that could be, like, for example, your Gwent story with the Witcher 4 is, like, the perfect example, I think.

[00:02:14] Rune: Mmm. Yeah. Yeah, that’s a really weird one, because I did truly enjoy the Gwent part of the game, but it just ruined the rest of the game, I suppose. So much so that I, I believe I even played the Gwent game on tablets, I believe it came to, I mean they did like a stand alone for Gwent only, or if I picked up another game, I can’t remember now, but.

[00:02:36] And I am obsessed with those kinds of card games I mentioned in that podcast too, in that episode, Final Fantasy VIII and IX, you have a card game system in those games too, which is, distract you from the main story. But yeah, sometimes it’s a good thing, but it can definitely be a bad thing too.

[00:02:56] Do you have any, examples of how you have shot yourself in the foot, Otto?

Open-World Games and Collectibles

[00:03:02] Otto: Yeah, so I think usually it’s, like, the, like, with, open-world games, and perfectionism.

[00:03:09] Rune: Mm.

[00:03:11] Otto: And I think like, the way I want to do it usually is, like, there’s two, two versions of this. Either it’s that I play, for example, Skyrim, or something like that, or, like Assassin’s Creed, and then you wanna do all of the side quests and all of the collectibles and everything before you do the main quest.

[00:03:33] So then you do all of that stuff, and then you do the main quest, and then game is over, basically. But Sometimes, there’s too much stuff, like, side stuff that is not really that much fun. I’ve done this in Assassin’s Creed, for example. That there’s so many collectibles and side quests and, you know, meaningless stuff that eventually you just lose track of the whole, like, experience and then just quit playing it before you even started the main quest, basically.

[00:04:05] Rune: Mm.

[00:04:06] Otto: So, so that’s one variant, but I would say also, like, the other way is that you do the main quest first, but then you sort of, you have completed the game, so you really don’t feel that there’s anything, any reason to keep doing the side quests or anything, so then you just quit it early, and you just lose out on, like, 90% of the gameplay, sometimes.

[00:04:32] Rune: I, we talk often about, well, yeah, open-world and all that stuff, and I am just not a big fan of them because I got so burned out after playing San Andreas on PlayStation 3, or was it PlayStation 2 even? So that sort of broke me, but, but not for this, these sort of side questy stuff reasons, however, I feel it’s overwhelming to play open-world games, and I agree with this side quest stuff that is completely pointless, it’s just to tick boxes, it’s, I think it’s bad game design, and it’s just not fun, and it doesn’t add anything to, to the game and the worst part is when you just have to run like forever to get to a place just to collect something and then you go to the next one and, and you most likely you always have to go online and find like a tutorial or a walkthrough where these things are for example in Grand Theft Auto IV, I believe you can shoot down these pigeons, they were all over New York. So you just ended up, I mean it would be I, I can’t imagine how much you would have to play in order to kill them all by yourself without looking up on a, you know, a walkthrough, which in my, from my point of view, that makes it completely pointless to have those there. for what reason, apart from getting the trophy, but you know you will never get the trophy unless you go online and try to figure out where they are.

[00:06:03] And then the worst part is even when those types of collectibles are a thing in a game is that what, what, what makes it even more worse is when or worse is that when it tells you where they are, but there’s no system in your game that tells you which one you had done in that case, killing the pigeon. I can’t remember if that was the case in Grand Theft Auto IV, but in KnifeBoy, my game, I had that system where you collect these, comic books all over the game and then I uploaded, this was the first Steam version and I got some feedback, like, people got annoyed like, well, I don’t know which one I picked up or not, because I added this kiosk so you could sort of get hints where they are, because I really don’t want you to just go online and try to figure it out even though in hindsight, that’s actually better for a developer’s point of view because then you get more traffic and stuff like that when people search your game in Google like, you know, how the algorithms and all that works, but I, I added this kiosk in the game so you go to him and he will you pay him and he give you hints. But then I had no systems to sort of check which one you have picked up or not, so that was like an update I had to do later on to make that and now I think it’s it’s perfect the way it is now you pick them you find them whenever you find them and then whichever you couldn’t find you can go to him later in the game, just buy them, the hints and the collectibles themselves are comic book pages. So if you’re interested in the story, there’s also something some value to get these things. But yeah, the long story, long story short these collectible stuffs and the tick box stuff. I really think that ruins open-world games.

[00:07:44] Otto: Yeah, yeah, totally. And it’s sort of, I, I really, like, the best gaming sessions you have, I think Witcher 3 is actually, like, the best example you have, because at that point, usually, it’s really made for, for to not be very repetitive and, you know, shooting yourself in the foot, because the way that they do it, it’s like you do a side quest and that’s something like kill a vampire or a werewolf or something and then it turns into this, like, goose chase of, like, like a rabbit hole or something. And then it, like, in the end you really are surprised or it didn’t at all go the way you thought it would go.

[00:08:31] So, in that case, there’s not this sort of like, it wouldn’t have made the game better if there was like, a billion like gold coins or something that you have to collect on every rooftop or something. It’s just now, you know, playing the Witcher, you just feel sort of concentrated on the game itself and you don’t have to usually look anything up, it’s just clear what you need to do and where to do it and all of that. So I think also like a lot of these, I think, I can imagine with Assassin’s Creed, since they have like, one each, or at least every other year that they have to release.

[00:09:14] Then you just have to cram a lot of gameplay in that, and how do you do that? Well, just put a pigeon or a whatever, MacGuffin, somewhere on every rooftop or something.

[00:09:26] Rune: I think I, I do hope, I’ve been listening to some, some gaming podcasts and I feel like, um, I don’t know, like, it feels like it has, it had something to do with the one of the CEOs from PlayStation when he would sort of quit, he said something like it’s unsustainable how we make games now, they’re just becoming so bloody expensive because the expectations on games are getting out of control and so on and he was I felt like he was setting a seed for us to expect not less, but that things are not gonna blow up more as it already is. I think Grand Theft Auto 6 is gonna prove how a game worth two billion dollars looks like, it’s going to be insane obviously. But even in that case like that being an open-world game, it’s like, how much content can you put on every square meter in the game and when you make an open-world game? It’s almost like they’re going to set a new standard on what it is, and I think that’s just going to be impossible for most to achieve. And gamers are going to be very spoiled after playing that. The same way a lot of us was spoiled after playing, Breath of the Wild and vent to Horizon.

[00:10:46] That was another conf, like, thing in the industry when people played Breath of the Wild and then they played Horizon, and Horizon just felt so like oldschool open-world, because you couldn’t climb anywhere you wanted and so on. So it’s just like this, every time there’s a new open-world game, it’s like they add some unique mechanic, which is awesome.

[00:11:05] But then we all, it’s almost as we expect that for the next big open-world game. And I, I do wonder it’s, it’s kind of like we, we talked about this, long time ago about PR and stuff with all these algorithms and all these techniques to make sure to, to get the most out of your, the viewers. And, it’s almost like we reach a, we must reach a peak at some point at how much we can take in, in terms of PR or whatever, and how much the algorithm can brainwash you to, to do things or to, to buy stuff and so on and I wonder if we I hope we are we gonna reach some sort of peak when it comes to open-worldness and what I would love to see is that you have, instead of developers chasing to become the next insane open-world game that they sort of shift direction and and say you know what, we can’t be Grand Theft Auto 6, we can’t be that insane, like look, they have, I mean that’s a 2 billion dollar game or however much it costs to make. So I do hope that we will instead find, see more and more games, what I, you know, I hope that my game will be appreciated for being a mini open-world.

[00:12:16] It’s a very small game, but you know, it’s all there in one small spot. And I do really hope we get more of that. We talked about that when we talked about Starfield with all this bullshit fast travels crap. Like, imagine if that entire game was just on one planet and it was just more compact. Just like, you know, you know, Fallout 3 or Fallout Vegas and so, these are big ass games.

[00:12:40] But in the grand scheme of things, imagine that size and all of Starfield in that. There would be so many things to do in, you know, in that area. I think that would be way more fun instead of all these other things, like to fast travel and all that stuff. So I do really hope that, we get, we get less of this tick box crap in open-world games and just more mini open-world games where there’s just more things to do in one spot.

[00:13:09] And also with that Witcher stuff you talked about where when you go down this rabbit hole it’s just a goose chase in another direction which you weren’t expecting. But you’re doing it all in one area. I think that’s just, that sounds so cool.

[00:13:23] And I hope that’s what’s going to happen, and I really believe that’s going to happen, because I do think it’s going to be unsustainable to keep making these insane open-world games and fill them with stuff, which they’re not, because they tend to be quite empty.

[00:13:36] But it would be so much cooler if it was just smaller.

How Developers Are Shooting Themselves in the Foot

[00:13:41] Otto: And if you think about it, this is sort of a, I didn’t think about this before, but this is sort of aligning with the theme a little bit, that developers are shooting themselves in the foot with making and promising, like, more and more, and then eventually you get the, I guess it’s called the Law of Diminishing Returns, that eventually it’s not that cool with doing, like this big of a world, I think sort of, No Man’s Sky set the bar for that, that, alright, here you have it, it’s so fucking big, that nobody will ever be able to explore all of it ever. Basically. So, you know, it, the size in and of itself is not impressive anymore.

Open-World Games (in Space) Are Overhyped and Over-Promised

[00:14:28] Otto: And I think also, as I said before with space games, I think doing like an open-world space game is like taking the least interesting aspect of space and making that the main point. Like the emptiness of space, you know, that’s not fun to play.

[00:14:46] And so you’re either going to have like just gliding around forever in emptiness, which is, there’s nothing to do, or you’re just gonna have cutscenes and like loading screens and stuff in between, so then why have this big open space anyhow, so like, like you said, I think like having a giant space station, for example, like the size of a real city or something like that, that would be much cooler than having like… You know, if you have two NPCs on two different planets, why have them on two different planets?

[00:15:23] Because on each planet, it’s just this small, small, super tiny spot on that planet. The rest of the planet is just waste. Nothing gets used basically.

[00:15:35] Rune: Yeah, and, I was just thinking, like the only positive thing I could see from the Starfield argument I did before is that from, in a distance you can see different mountains, let’s say, because that would sort of impact your, like where you are, I suppose. So that’s sort of like an argument I would do against myself.

[00:15:58] Like I said, I want them all in one smaller spot. But at the same time, you could… Fuck, I don’t know. I can see that point that you go to a different planet and it should feel different, but I still believe that you can make it feel different just by entering a different area. I think, actually Elden Ring is a perfect example of this, where you run to a different area and it feels so different.

[00:16:21] And that area is sort of hidden behind mountains and so on. I, of course, I do think that Elden Ring is too big as well, of a game, but that’s just because I, I prefer they didn’t go open-world, but anyway, you could still make, we could still make the Starfield game where it’s layers even, like you go down the sewers and there’s like a, I don’t know, a city there or this other side of the map have different environments, so you could still make it.

[00:16:49] And I think that’s, now that I think about it, that’s sort of how they have made the previous games like, Morrowind. The southern parts of Morrowind is way different from the north and so on, so you could do that. Make it feel like you’re on a different, not necessarily a different planet, but a different, well, it could be like a different planet, still, yeah, so yeah, I do think, that’s true.

[00:17:12] And when you said, developers over-promising things that brings, brings to mind is, Lionhead Studios with this Peter Moore was his name, maybe the Black & White, the god game when they did Fable and he was like, oh you can cut down a tree and watch it grow and then that never happened in the actual game.

Sunset Moon Update

[00:17:32] Rune: But speaking of over-promising, man like my demo for Sunset Moon, which I had hoped was going to be done before Christmas or right before Christmas. It’s still not done. And I think I need another month. Man, it is just, it never ends and this is just a small like a mini open-world but it’s just, just I’m trying to do this thing where I just pack it with content and like even though it takes place on this small island, you have a totally different experience than someone else based on your, yeah, sex and class and so on and the things you do It’s just… but a part of me feel like that when you have the systems in place it, it just works and then I think you talked about it, this A Short Hike, or was it Yahya?

[00:18:25] Otto: I think I have mentioned it on the podcast.

[00:18:28] Rune: Yeah, so the developer, it’s a small game and he said it was so easy to bug test the game because it was just like these are the places you can go to and that’s it.

[00:18:35] With, I don’t know what, exactly what he meant, but I can imagine now that I’m sort of bug testing the area where my demo takes place, it’s so easy because it’s just like this small area and I run around with the character and I see, ah, this looks a bit daft, like you’re overstepping some boundaries that it looks like you’re floating in the water or something.

[00:18:56] So then I just drag down the box collider so it doesn’t go that far. So once it’s done, for example, in the demo, it takes place in the spring, but that will be the same thing for every season, so it’s just like it makes it so much easier when it’s a mini open-world in terms of finding these bugs and all that stuff.

[00:19:15] But then on the other hand, making it a mini open-world game with all these functions, those functions can also cause a lot of errors, so you know, that will be a lot of bug fixing there, I suppose.

[00:19:27] But that’s the kind of stuff I’m doing now, and I think that’s why it takes so long to get this demo out, because It’s literally finalizing the game in many ways by testing and all these functions, but that was just a thought I had when developers over-promising things, I thought about myself there.

Shooting Yourself in the Foot With Trophies

[00:19:48] Rune: But I do also wanted to touch on trophies, in terms of shooting yourself in the foot when you play games, and this is something I did a lot before. I think I mentioned it but, Uncharted, those games, I am so sick of that type of game now, because I, I literally played the Uncharted 1, 2, 3 back-to-back to get the platinum trophies in every game. And it was just like, first I played it on normal mode, to have the experience, and then I went to hard mode to get the hard trophy, and then the extreme mode, because you had to play it on hard mode in order to unlock the extreme mode.

[00:20:28] So every game I played 3 times back-to-back-to-back, so that’s 3 games, 3 times each, that’s 9 times, just to get a fucking platinum trophy, that is stuck on my Playstation account, which I don’t even know how to log into anymore.

[00:20:42] Otto: Yeah.

[00:20:43] Rune: That totally ruined those types of games for me as well. So it is, it’s insane, like, open-world games ruined me because of these tick boxes.

[00:20:53] And then these adventure games ruined me because of trophies. Do you have any similar, trophy example or something else that have ruined a game for you or a genre, maybe?

[00:21:08] Otto: Yeah, that sort of reminds me about something that Gabe Newell said in, I think it was the documentary about the 25th anniversary of Half-Life, and then he said something like realism, isn’t important, what’s important in games is fun. So it doesn’t matter if it’s realistic or not, if you’re not having fun then there’s no point to it.

[00:21:38] And that’s sort of like when you said like, re-playing Uncharted 9 times, doesn’t feel like very much fun, so I’m thinking like, it’s sort of stupid to have it, that you have to un, play it on hard mode to unlock the hardest mode. Because, in that case, that sort of encourages you to replay it a lot, lot of times, you know, at least two.

[00:22:04] So then, there should be something in the game that makes it fun to replay it, like something is gonna be different, or it’s gonna be randomized this, or it’s gonna be, you know, something to that effect, but if it’s just the exact same, and those are very linear games, so if it’s just the exact same, then sort of, you’re, as a developer, you’re shooting yourself in the foot for making it less fun, and then as the, as playing it, then you’re shooting yourself in the foot because you’ll make your, yourself stuck, sick of it. So it’s a sort of a, weird situation.

[00:22:41] Rune: I do wonder though if we are preaching to the choir. I don’t know what that means. I just wanted to say it. Does that mean when you’re, yeah, do you know?

[00:22:50] Otto: You’re saying something that, like, somebody will totally agree with you on whatever you’re saying. So, like you’re trying to convice someone, like, you’re trying to preach Christianity to the guys who are already volunteering for a church choir. So there’s no reason to like, Hey, by the way, God exists! And then, you know, you’re already…

[00:23:14] Rune: Well, then that’s that’s not what I’m trying to say then. Then I’m gonna say I feel we’re talking to a rock or something, like the complete opposite, but I do wonder though like when we the way we talk about this, I really feel like it’s some sort of OCD programming, very weird way of thinking because I, I imagine that most people who play Uncharted don’t platinum it.

[00:23:39] I would imagine that most of the people just play it one time and they have a hell of a time and then they move on. So now we want the developers to make sure it’s more fun for us trophy hunters when we play it on hard mode, on expert mode apart from it being more difficult. So I, from that perspective, maybe the developers aren’t shooting themselves in the foot because they know most people are not going to sit like an idiot playing the game 3 times back-to-back.

[00:24:09] So maybe, I don’t know.

[00:24:13] Otto: I guess, like, something you could do to make it less like, to trigger people like us, I suppose, that just want to have it completed, is to not emphasize the incompleteness of the game, I guess. So, something that developers do sometimes, it’s on the save file for example, they will list how many percentages complete everything is like in the achievements and stuff or they will like, like have all of the the trophies visible. So I guess like if you would really want to have like only the guys who or gals who want to really complete, be a completionist and complete everything then you would have like almost all of it hidden trophies.

[00:25:02] So if you’re really interested, you can look it up and just go do it, all of it. But then if you just wanna enjoy it, and then you could just, and not have the, the percentage on the safe file, so then you could, you know, just enjoy it. And then see for yourself if there’s stuff to explore or not and not put a number on it because then you, you don’t wanna quit playing it because it feels incomplete sort of.

Achievements in KnifeBoy

[00:25:29] Rune: Yeah, I agree. What I did with KnifeBoy and Red Colony Games, I believe, was that I would, I mean, I did so simple trophies in the Red Colony Games, but in KnifeBoy a little bit more complex. But I made sure they would pop when you were at 80% of all the collectibles. You got the gold trophy for that and 80% of all the Boss fights, you got that trophy as well.

[00:25:55] And to me, I felt, the way I reasoned regarding that was that if you just there for the trophies, then here you go, take them and leave. But if you get hooked by the game or the story or the, the world I, that I built, then you would probably stick around and try to 100% everything. And in terms of yeah, it was KnifeBoy, I believe if you take 100% of everything, and then you return to the bar, you will have, so there’s a bar in the game where these people are playing, so every night there’s a different musician, or I think there are three or four rotating. But if you return to that bar when you have 100% of everything, they all would be there. There’s nothing special to it. It’s just that’s it, but I did have a plan to have this, zeppelin coming to the town and then you can get inside it and then it would be…

[00:26:55] I even made a whole room for it, so it was kind of like a bonus room just to show off that you have done…

[00:27:03] Otto: Yeah.

[00:27:04] Rune: …100% of the game and then I will, I made this billboard where it said like, take a screenshot and share, something like that, I ended up not having that in the game.

[00:27:14] But, I worked on it to make sure that people who really stick around to 100% the game, even though they have the trophy, all the trophies/achievements, they will get some sort of reward. And I think that’s a good way of doing it, because then you, yeah, like I said, if, if people are used to it for their trophies, then they can get them a bit early and leave and then people who are really like me, enjoying the game they will stick around and try to use 100% because they want to.

[00:27:40] It’s kind of like how when you play a Nintendo game I think that’s the beauty of Nintendo not using trophies is that they, they sort of trust their game is, are so good and addicting in a way that they’re basically saying we don’t need trophies. You’re gonna try to find them anyway, which is true. But now that I play with my son, Pikmin, for example, it’s just like there’s just so much things to collect and it’s a bit, I mean my son doesn’t get it when I was like, oh, no, wait, wait, wait, we’ll have to find fucking this thing. We can’t go on to the next level I need to find this and I wanna 100% everything before we move on.

[00:28:16] But, so that kind of helped actually, I had to play with him, because then I sort of like, well, let’s just go through it. And, you know, he screw up everything and he die and all that.

[00:28:26] Otto: Yeah.

[00:28:27] Rune: It ruins the statistics for me, but you know, you learn to live with that.

[00:28:32] Otto: Yeah. Oh, interesting. Well, it’s sort of. I didn’t know that the Switch didn’t have achievements actually.

[00:28:42] Rune: Nope, they seem to refuse to.

[00:28:45] Otto: Nice. It’s, I, I really like that. It sort of feels relaxing that, sort of, it’s, I also want it to sort of, be a bit mystical, if possible. Like, you don’t want everything laid out for you.

[00:29:03] Like, there are so, this many achievements, or whatever. You want rather In my case, for example, you want something where you can just explore and do whatever, and then when you feel it’s enough, then it’s enough. It doesn’t have to be a number on it.

[00:29:21] You know, and it would be fun also to have, like, if you make a game, especially an open-world game, that you make a lot of stuff in it, but you sort of don’t define all of it, so people will just have to find it themselves and then, like, decide for themselves if they have to do that thing or not.

[00:29:39] Rune: Hmm.

[00:29:41] Otto: Feels like that will be like a really fresh approach to it, Yeah.

The Antidote

[00:29:45] Rune: Yeah. I think…

[00:29:46] Otto: I think, yeah, I think the only exception to this rule that a lot of achievements, a lot of like meaningless stuff is bad is Resident Evil 5, for me at least, so I played that with my brother probably hundreds of times, and it’s sort of, it’s a very short game, if you think about it, because one of the achievements is to reach the end of the game, but under 5 hours, so it’s sort of short that way, and then you unlock the rocket launcher, which makes it even shorter, but that sort of, somehow, it’s really fun to replay them, because you get to a level where you know, like, every level, you know exactly where every enemy is coming from, when they’re coming, and so on, so you could almost play it blindfolded, it feels like.

[00:30:41] So I don’t know why that’s so fun. I guess it’s the collaboration, I suppose, also, that it’s multiplayer.

[00:30:47] Rune: It’s so funny you bring up Resident Evil 5, that’s one of those trophy whore games I played and we, I played it in the, in our summer house. We had no internet and I, you know, one of the trophies is to, to collect a lot of money. I don’t know if you had to buy something, but I remember one of the levels, one of the levels are where you can collect a lot of rubes or, yeah. Do you remember, was it cash or, yeah, whatever, you kill enemies and you break boxes and you get these loot. And one of…

[00:31:20] Otto: I’m thinking like, one of the, you know, the, the level with, it’s a sort of a cavern and you move a lot of like mirrors and stuff, Indiana Jones-style to unlock doors and stuff. Maybe that was it?

[00:31:33] Rune: My memory tells me it felt more like a tomb, like a Egyptian tomb.

[00:31:38] Otto: Yeah, I, I think that sort of vibe.

[00:31:41] Rune: Okay. I played that over and over again and I played other levels first and I was so like, cause I didn’t make enough money and I realized this is going to take forever to get this trophy. And then my brother’s friend, who I never met before, came to the summer house.

[00:31:57] And this is before… smartphones were a thing. I can’t remember, but I did not have one and I did not, I was not connected. And I was like, his name is Oscar. So I was like, hi Oscar, can I borrow your phone and check something online? And then he had a phone where it’s not a touchscreen phone, so I typed it in.

[00:32:19] Otto: Like one of those keyboard…?

[00:32:21] Rune: No, it was like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, that kind of phone. So you press two times, yeah, just press a couple of times and then it pops up. And then I was sitting there. Yeah, yeah, and this is even like a, and I, I mean, I feel like Resident Evil 5 is not that old, but it could have been, I mean, we didn’t have internet in the summer house, period.

[00:32:42] And this guy, he’s like a helicopter guy living in a mountain somewhere. So maybe people had smartphones, but he didn’t have one either.

[00:32:49] So my point is that he had that kind of phone and he had connection to it, but you had to pay per minute. And he’s like, yeah, here you go, and I’m sitting there, like, desperately trying to figure out which level in Resident Evil 5 can you make most money in.

[00:33:02] And then I Google it on this little, his phone, and then I found out that, level I tried to describe earlier, which felt like a tomb. And then I was just playing this game over and over and over again. And this guy, this helicopter pilot, who was not so much into gaming, he thought I was, like, you’re sick in your head, you’re just playing this shit over like, hour after hour, and I’m like, I’m trying to get a trophy, and then that night, I finally got the trophy, and then, uh well, we were a bunch of lads there drinking and playing games and then I would be like everyone look, look, look, look and then the trophy pop and we all like cheering and you know drinking and like yeah! So it was like I said earlier these trophies are completely useless but all of that work I put into that trophy was worth it.

[00:33:48] And then we also played a I am Ironman, that song, I am Ironman. So, but instead I was singing, I am Platiman. And we were all, yeah, Platiman Plat-, like you’re being silly. But that was good fun plating. Oh, that’s what they call me, Platiman, Platiman.

[00:34:11] Otto: Cool, very nice, what a story. It’s just, I like that when you sort of do something with it other than just you have the tick box and that’s it.

[00:34:21] Rune: Hmm,

[00:34:22] we even made a music video about it, but it’s stuck on my brother’s Facebook, which he quit using ages ago so it’s just somewhere there or on one of his computers. It’s gone, but we did even make a music video for I am Platiman So that was good fun.

[00:34:39] Otto: We have to find it. That’ll be fun, cool. Very nice.

[00:34:46] I guess it sort of reminds me about, I mentioned RuneScape, previously, but, there you also have these sort of skills where you have, like, you start at level 1 for most of those skills, and then you can go all the way until 99, but basically the way it works, I don’t remember, I don’t think it doubles the amount of XP you need for each level, but it increases, like, exponentially, so, so, so, like, when you reached 92, then to get to 99, you have to get as much as it took you to get to 92, to get to the max level. So, a lot of work and I’ve never done it myself, so. But anyway, so I’ve seen a lot, a lot on Reddit and, YouTube and stuff that people have like 99 parties where they reach level 99 in some skills and then, you know, they do the final click or whatever to, to get the final like 2 XP, which is kind of fun, so I guess that’s a good antidote for these achievements to sort of associate it it with something actually fun.

[00:36:00] Rune: Yeah, I have another one, I think I mentioned before I lived in Belgium with my brother when he was studying game something and he, and then I got, 10, 000 kills in Res- Resistance 2 online on PlayStation 3 and I, I do not play online games period. I don’t like it, but I did you know, work on this trophy like two hours every day and then eventually got 10, 000 kills and popped the trophy and of course my brother just being silly yeah, now we have to celebrate! So we went out and bought beer and pizza and celebrating Platiman, Platiman, so yeah it is fun to do those things around it but it tot- like talking about shooting yourself in the foot, it totally ruin ruins the game experience in so many ways other than you know the silly stuff you…

[00:36:52] Otto: Yeah.

[00:36:52] Rune: …can do, I suppose. Yeah.

[00:36:54] Otto: Yeah, it sort of reminds me also of another story, so you have at least the one Half-Life game, I’ll put it on screen at this moment and in the description, whichever one it is. Because I think that was released for the PlayStation 2 only. But people ported it to PC, somehow. Anyhow, so I played it with a friend of mine, and we’re both like massive Half-Life fans.

[00:37:19] And, it’s, it’s a great game, and, you know, you play through it, it’s, multiplayer, and then you get to the end. but then, at the end of it, you have a bonus level, I think, or some achievement or something. Because it’s from, like, 98 or, you know, 2001 or something. So it’s, there’s no, like, real achievements, but there’s some, like, bonus content at the end to release.

[00:37:46] So then you have to go back to, like a third in of the game, and then you have to, like, I don’t remember exactly what it was, but it was something like, you have to kill some enemy before it kills some guy, or you have to, whatever, because it’s, we failed, like we, I think we did this for maybe four hours or something, just this one thing, just to try to get it, you know, and that included, like, starting the level over and over again, jumping past these enemies and, you know, you got it, it sort of in muscle memory to do this one level just because of this thing.

[00:38:28] But something that, sort of a theme that I think has been running through this is, sort of that, when you do shoot yourself in the foot and something becomes so boring and monotonous and you never want to play it again, that’s usually when you do it alone, and you sit by yourself, and then all you get is just a ding and that’s it, but in these moments when you, when it’s been really fun has been with people so if you sort of have people to do it with, then it’s not, it doesn’t become a problem, for me at least.

[00:39:09] And, so that, that’s the way it was with that Half-Life game, that it was, incredibly fun, even during doing it. So, yeah, I guess maybe if you, if you can do multiplayer in your game, do that, and so you can do the things together.

[00:39:30] Rune: I thought about, again with Resident Evil 5, there’s a troll in the game. He smash your car. Do you remember that part?

[00:39:40] Otto: Oh yeah, the, you stand in the, like, turret and…

[00:39:44] Rune: Yeah, and there’s quick

[00:39:45] time events and I am just so bad at quick time events, yeah, and if you play the game on the expert mode there you even have less time to think and I could not get past fucking point and then I was laughing while you were talking, because when I talk about Platiman, my friend who, who really suck at games, he’s really good at games, sorry, but he, he came over, but he never chased trophies, so he had no Platinum trophies, so he so I would sit there saying I am Platiman and him like and he’s like I’m the Silver Boy, because he just go for the silver trophies or whatever.

[00:40:24] But anyway, he then helped me get past that troll and I was just thinking now when you’re talking, like man I was just so excited to get past that point just so I could get my, my bloody platinum trophy, but I didn’t even do it myself. I was like, can you please help me because I’m so bad at quick time events, and then he did it for me to get past that, that troll, but yeah, it just came to mind when you talked about like making it, making it fun like with someone else, make it, turn it into something that, that’s obviously…

[00:40:59] Fun stuff, and now that we’re talking about it, you know, these are good good memories. It makes me smile. So I guess there is some all this crap, but it, at same time, it really screwed me over in terms of the types of games I played. But, hey, maybe that’s why I ended up playing Soulsborne games, because I sort of burned myself out on all these other genres because of this trophy hunting crap.

[00:41:26] Here’s one more thing, like, speaking of trophies and, in Bloodborne, I, I platinum Bloodborne, but that was just an absolute delight the entire game, except the Chalice Dungeons, which are auto-generated dungeons. But in hindsight, I also look at that as an experience, cause I was gonna have auto-generated levels in Sunset Moon when you enter, there’s a castle in the background and that’s for collecting resources and stuff like that. And I have, come to realize that I don’t want that. I don’t want to have auto-generated levels there because I, I don’t see the point in it. I, like, what’s the purpose? And the whole point to enter that tower anyway is just to, to collect and find resources.

[00:42:05] And in my opinion, after playing, Stardew Valley, some years ago, this was my least favorite part because it was also enemies in it. So it was just like, auto-generated levels and enemies. And I think this was the weakest part of the entire game. So I’m not gonna do that in my game. So, you know, something came out of it.

[00:42:25] But otherwise, Bloodborne, Platinum Trophy, very proud of it and it was a true delight the entire game.

Why Open World Space Games Are Boring, Continued

[00:42:33] Otto: Cool. It’s something that I just thought about with, when we talked about space games back in, previously in the episode. I thought about, like, the, making a space game that is so fucking big but you have to fast travel everywhere anyhow, it’s like making a game where you, like have to go and talk to the receptionist for each floor, which is right outside the elevator, and then it doesn’t matter how big you make the entire building, because you’re just gonna go up and down the elevator anyhow and just go to the first room and then go to the next one if you make the, you know, it’s so stupid in my opinion.

[00:43:19] It’s and I guess I, I can, I probably ranted about this before but it’s surprising to me what people are asking for in terms of games, like with all of these space games I remember people said about No Man’s Sky, it’s like, oh, you can do anything! And there’s this clip that I’ve, I think I’ve showed before, that there’s this one journalist that said, What do you mean you can do anything?

[00:43:46] Like, you can go over here, shoot things, and then bring things over here, and then press E, and that’s, you know, eight possibilities, not infinite. And, it feels a lot like, I don’t understand what people are asking for with these types of things, that you know, they’re, they’re just, they wanna go around in the vacuum, or whatever, or they wanna, I, I don’t get it, like what you, you want to do, basically.

[00:44:18] Rune: In that, those situations, because I designed this RPG game, which I hope to make one day, and one part of the story, it would be, low tides, you know, when the water go down. So the idea was that this, you’re on this boat, and it, it sort of crash, and then you’re stuck there, and there’s some character building, while you’re waiting for the low tides to, to come, and then you can cross from this little island into mainland and that I was, I was sort of imagining I mean when I designed like wrote this game I was imagining it, it was like back in Uncharted 1 days, so I was thinking that sort of third person and all that stuff. And also having the camera on rails when when you’re not in control over it, it sort of pans its own way to sort of give you a more cinematic view and so on and I was then thinking that you’re just running over this sand, because the, the, the tides are down, or the water is down, so you can cross, right?

[00:45:15] And it’s just sand dunes, so you run, and run, and run, and this whole thing would take maybe ten minutes or something. And you don’t do much, but in my opinion, my idea was, and still is, that it would still add like a, a unique or it would add something because you’re doing this mundane and boring thing for so long, but while you’re doing it, you’re obviously, the characters are talking back and forth and because this only happens one time in the game, it becomes a unique thing and something mean, meaningful and obviously a beautiful starry sky and the moon and the water reflection all that stuff. So it becomes this beautiful moment and now that you talked about space, like obviously when you just go into space like in No Man’s Sky or whatever, it’s just, if the whole game is that, that’s just, that’s just boring.

[00:46:04] And that made me think about, there’s one part of, Final Fantasy VIII, which is, you go up in space to this alien ship. The alien ship part itself is awful. I have bad memories from that, and I think it’s because I didn’t quite, I mean, I didn’t understand English back then, so I had to sort of figure out what to do.

[00:46:25] And I, if memory serves, you have to kill the enemy, the aliens on, on board that are the same colors. So you have to kill the red one and the red one, and then they, they die. But if you kill a red one and a green one they all revive or something, if memory serves, but the point is I was stuck on that ship forever, but eventually you make it to the next part and that’s when your girlfriend is sort of being sucked out in, in, in space and you have this little space suit on and it’s kind of first person view while you’re doing this, which is weird.

[00:46:54] And then, the first time in a Final Fantasy game where they have vocals, like actual someone singing and then you use the R, L1 and R1 button to sort of navigate towards her and eventually you get her but that moment when you’re trying to get her, that was a very impactful and beautiful moment, because you’re trying to save your love, and it’s out in space, there’s nothing there, like you said, it’s just, in grand scheme of things, it’s super boring, because you’re just floating through space.

[00:47:25] But, because this only happened one time in the game, and obviously later on in the game, so there’s this buildup in terms of the relationship between Squall and Rinoa, I can’t remember her name, I always rename them to my own names and whoever girl I was into was the girl, but, yeah, so that was a cool moment in space, but overall, I agree with you, but I think you can turn it into something interesting if it only happens, you know, once in the entire game.

Points of No Return in Games

[00:47:53] Otto: Yeah. Speaking of Final Fantasy, that also reminds me of the end of, Final Fantasy III when I recently played through that or tried to, at least. I gave up on the end and then just YouTubed it.

[00:48:08] But that’s also a sort of a way which, if I can connect it to Witcher 3 actually, that sort of, like if you do a point of no return, then like, if you do that incorrectly, then that’s gonna be bad for everyone basically.

[00:48:29] So in Final Fantasy III, I got to a situation where like when you fight the final boss, you have to first go through, like, imagine there’s that, there’s a ring, like a, a, a, wall around a fortress, and then to get through that wall, you have to go through like three dungeons, to get to the courtyard of the castle.

[00:48:57] And all the way there, you don’t have anything to heal you. You have to buy potions or something, and then you, you can’t get replenished mana. So you have only like a certain amount of, like, magic that you can use, which is sort of essential for fighting in the first place. And then you get to the courtyard, and there you can save, but again, there’s no replenishment of mana at least, and unless you use magic, then there’s no replenishment of health either.

[00:49:29] And then you have to go into the castle, which is like, maybe, five dungeons or something or even more even. And then I remember in that castle, there’s like, seven bosses or something in a row. And then, you can do what I did, which is just go and kill one of them, and then go back, all the way back, outside the wall, and then heal and stuff.

[00:49:56] And then go all the way back and do the next one and so on, for all of them. And then when you have the last boss, so I tried to do this and, you know, I failed on, like, I played so much and I failed on, like, the last like, it was not, maybe he had, like, 10% health left or something. And then I just googled online to see how hard is this to beat?

[00:50:24] And then, you know, I realized, like, oh, maybe, like, four hours ago I should have switched classes on these guys. And then leveled up their classes, blah, blah, blah. So then, you’re at the point where you have to just basically go away from the final fight where I have, like, if I would have, like, the right skills, it would just be a ten minute thing.

[00:50:46] But now it’s just gonna be grinding for five hours, and then go back, and then maybe it’s gonna work, which is, you know, it’s sort of makes it an impossible situation where it’s not gonna be fun to do that.

[00:51:02] And to connect it to Witcher 3, actually. When I, I had that situation with Gwent, the first time I played it, so then I didn’t do the Gwent stuff at all, and then all of a sudden there’s this quest where I have to win in Gwent. And then I couldn’t progress, so then I’ve just shot myself in the foot because I didn’t learn the tutorial, and then I haven’t collected any cards along the way, so my deck is shit. So then I just had to restart the whole thing.

[00:51:32] And now actually, the reason I haven’t played through the second DLC, is, which is the last thing I have left, is because there’s a Gwent mission, and then, I think, there’s some, like, unique sword or something you can win, if you win all of the matches, but you progress even if you win or fail, but I really, like, don’t wanna progress without winning everything, basically, so now I just, I’m stuck on there, and I don’t know how to proceed and win, basically, so, I think creating some sort of like, point of no return where it’s really, it takes a lot of work to just get past that, is not a good strategy for, for fun, I suppose.

Problems and Solutions for Card Games Inside Video Games

[00:52:23] Rune: I’m thinking about, regarding this card game we talked about in the Witcher. So I’m trying to, we’ll try to make a card game in Sunset Moon, and I was just thinking about how can I make sure that doesn’t happen in Sunset Moon, but I sort of come back to this idea that Sunset Moon is a mini open-world, which makes it, so the idea in my case is that I want there, there shall be some side quests stuck behind that kind of card game thing. I want to have this, there’s a geek living on the island like a nerd and hang out with another nerd, and they want to have these card tournaments and then you have to win that in order to proceed in that storyline, but I, a part of me feels like, even if, if you don’t like the card game, well, I was thinking like, maybe it doesn’t matter because you have, everything is just in this small spot, so if you can’t beat this quest now, you can do it later, because it’s just, it’s just, you know, 50 meters in-game from your home, so, but then when you talk about it, so the only problem I see here is that if people don’t like the card game at all, there should maybe be some sort of, like you can do it in another way, sort of like you can get past that in another way and I was just thinking now like well I have this function in the game where you give these care packs to people to make them like you more so maybe that could be a solution like you either win him or win over him in this card game or you give him a care pack and that thus you don’t have to learn the card system and all that stuff.

[00:54:03] So those are also ways you could avoid those things but that sounds annoying to get stuck behind that in, in the Witcher, especially that deep into the game.

[00:54:12] Otto: Well, I think, something that, for me, like, card games is nothing I’m looking for, but, you know, it’s decent fun when you do play it. But, I think what sort of became the problem for me is that the first time I ran into the card thing, I thought, Ah, card games, fuck this, and then I just, you know, skipped through all the tutorials and then just forfeited the tutorial match and then went on my way.

[00:54:38] But, so then when I, because I thought it was gonna be like something like bowling in Grand Theft Auto or something, like, sure you can do it, but it really doesn’t matter if you can do it or not, but apparently it is sort of important. So, when I then got to that game that I had win to proceed in the quest, then the tutorial was over, so I had no idea how to play it.

[00:55:05] So then, you know first you select a leader card and I thought okay, what does this do? No idea, chose something, and then you choose like which cards and I thought, no idea what this does and then you know, you get to the game and then you know there’s a bunch of cards that’s on the board and no idea what the numbers do. You just click on something, and then all of a sudden you lost, and you have no idea what was I supposed to do, where, how do you even win this?

[00:55:33] So I think, if it would be something like, if the game would look at, okay, you haven’t won a game ever, then maybe the tutorial should be easily accessible. Like when you select a start card or something, it should say something like, you select this because of this, and this is something, this is what you want to achieve by doing this.

[00:55:57] And then the same with, like, these points. You want to have more, like, total points than them per round.

[00:56:05] Rune: Yeah, and also, as you said, if that tutorial pop up later on in the game, you will actually be aware of what they’re talking about because you have seen these numbers and all that stuff. You just didn’t understand them. That’s a, that’s a good point, cause I would say that, in terms of Gwent, that was a game I didn’t understand at all when I first played, but, I just knew I would like it because I always liked these card games and that. But I do remember playing, Final Fantasy IX. I did not understand at all, because they added, first of all, you could defeat cards diagonally, and also they had elements, and I did not understand that, you know, this is ages ago, and obviously there was probably a tutorial, which I didn’t understand either, because it was in English, but Final Fantasy VIII was very, was easy, because you could only attack in four directions.

[00:56:54] And, the, it was so easy to understand that my number has to be higher than that number and there were no elements involved or anything. So that’s the kind of system I want in Sunset Moon, so you will, it should be very easy to understand. The only problem with that, that you can only fight in four directions and the, there are no elements involved is that it’s less strategy.

[00:57:19] But at the same time, in my opinion, like, in terms of Sunset Moon, that’s not, like, the game is not about playing this card game. It’s just, it’s just, it should just be an, yeah, like I said, a mini open-world game. It’s a small world with a lot of things to do, so if you’re into this, it’s there for you.

[00:57:36] But I do still, I have, like, made my script. So far, it does have an element to it, so, but I do think that’s a quite simple thing to explain as well, like, fire, if you have fire, you just add more damage to it. Like, I would make sure it’s easy to understand. So it adds a little bit more depth to it.

How Developing Games Replaces Playing Games

[00:58:00] Rune: But yeah, I do, I see we’re almost one hour in, but I do wanted to touch on one more shooting yourself in the foot, which is, the biggest one for me.

[00:58:11] We don’t need to go in depth because we’re out of time, but one thing I’ve noticed, starting developing games, I have stopped playing games. And that’s, that’s a big one. Like, I did not expect this to happen. I barely play games nowadays.

[00:58:31] Otto: Is it because of time or it’s like no longer fun because you see how the sauce is…?

[00:58:37] Rune: Uh, well now that I have a family it’s a little bit because of the time thingy, but even though you know, my son goes to bed, well 8-ish, so in 10 minutes and then by the time he’s asleep, it’s before 9, so I have 2 hours me time, but even that I, nah, I don’t feel like it. I just don’t feel like it. I don’t feel like it.

[00:59:05] I want to do something else when I’m when I’m not working. So I, that’s that’s really weird that I just don’t enjoy playing games anymore. I did get into, I bought the Black Mesa, Black Messiah, the one you told me.

[00:59:18] Otto: Oh Black Mesa?

[00:59:20] Rune: So I started playing on the Steam Deck, but it didn’t run well there at all.

[00:59:24] It felt weird to play first person there, so I’m gonna play that on my desktop later. But I also bought Blasphemous 2, which is a side scrolling, pixel art, beautiful, quite difficult. It was, it’s so good, and that one I did, hooked me for about two weeks, I’m towards the end of that game, but I, I don’t know, I, I lost, that’s a quite typical thing nowadays too for me, that I, I make it towards the end and then I just like, nah, I, I, I, I can’t be bothered anymore.

[00:59:58] But, that one is really good and it’s beautiful, so, so I am happy that sometimes games hook me to the point where I want to play them. in terms of Half-Life, I just don’t know, because my office is in the same room as my, where my sons live. We live in such a small place now, so there’s just no way for me to play games on the PC, but I do expect to play it when I get back to Sweden.

[01:00:23] Otto: Cool, and I think also I’ve had a, I think maybe like, when I started making games, sort of the same thing happened to me as well, and it’s been only recently that I’ve, started with it again and I think, something for me is like, you need time, not only maybe 2 hours, but something like you, where you feel like you can just get into a game and there’s nothing that’s gonna be like, oh, I have to quit any moment now.

[01:00:54] So then you want something like, where it’s just, you know, all the time you need, sort of.

[01:01:00] Rune: Yeah, that’s one thing I do not have, but I do think that I might, like one another thing I’m considering when we move back to Sweden is to buy a TV and a PlayStation 5. Like, we have nothing here, but that’s because we’re temporarily living here, but in Sweden we’re gonna try to settle down a little bit, for at least, you know, a couple of years.

[01:01:23] So it might be worth getting a TV and a PlayStation. And then I do think, that I might go back into those sort of story-driven, Uncharted types of games again, because those are quite short and they are quite easy as well nowadays, especially like AAA Hollywood blockbuster games. They’re see, they’re so simple nowadays in terms of difficulty, which is a good thing because if you don’t have all the time in the world, you can’t, like you said with Elden Ring for example, the hardest part about that game is that I never had time to play it and every time I picked it up, it felt like I had no clue how to play it because it’s a difficult game, which sort of is against all the things I said about me loving difficult games, but I do realize now that there’s a point why, there’s a reason why I can’t really play them anymore and that’s because I never had the time to get into it.

[01:02:15] So I do, I predict that I will fall back into easier games when I get back to Sweden, maybe more story-driven stuff that is easy to play. And that’s another thing, I play games with my son once in a while, so, but, you know, Pikmin, I bought the new Super Mario Wonders, but that was way too difficult for him, so that was a, what you call a thud.

[01:02:38] Like, we can’t play that. He, he could, he, like the first level of the game he could do, but either way, too complicated, too many buttons involved. But, Pikmin, it was easy, because he’s pressing one button and shooting stuff. But then I’m having a good time, because it’s fun to play for me. But, not so much for him, maybe. And Super Mario Kart is another great one I’ve mentioned before.

[01:03:01] So I do play a little bit of games, but in the grand scheme of things, I do not. And I think that’s because I’m developing games now, and that’s a bummer.

[01:03:10] Otto: Yeah, but one day, we’ll, we’ll get you there.

[01:03:14] Rune: I hope so.

Episode Outro

[01:03:15] Otto: Alright, yeah, alright, so I think, since we’re a little bit over an hour, let’s start wrapping up the episode. Anything more to add, Rune?

[01:03:27] Rune: No, I am, satisfied. I have shot myself enough in the foot today, so I’m all good.

[01:03:35] Otto: Good, good. Glad to hear it. Yeah, thank you again for being my amazing co-host, glad to have you back, and, if you have anything to add, dear listeners, please send in a voicemail or, something like that. I’m not giving up, or comments or, what else? Read the description if you wanna know what games we’re talking about, and, yeah, think that, I think that’s it.

[01:04:04] Rune: Oh, oh one question, Otto, if you do get a voice message, how nervous will you be 1 to 10? Like, if you tell me one day that we’ll have a voice message, I’m gonna shit my pants.

[01:04:15] Otto: Not, I don’t think I’m going to be nervous, but I’m going to be excited about it. I hope it’s something like crazy, that we have to censor off the show or something. But, but it will be really fun to, know, play it for the first time together and then just listen to whatever the hell it is.

[01:04:33] Rune: …a threat, someone’s gonna kill us.

[01:04:37] Otto: For insulting Starfield or something. Yeah, well, I hope it’s coming someday at least.

[01:04:45] Rune: It will. One day.

[01:04:48] Otto: One, one day, yeah. Alright, thank you so much everyone for listening and watching and, yeah. See you next week!

[01:04:56] Bye!

[01:04:57] Rune: Buh bye!

Podcast
Interview
Show Notes
Game Development
Indie Developer

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Otto Wretling

Written by Otto Wretling

244 Followers

Writing about my podcast, game development, technology, language learning, and whatever else comes to my mind!

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